I have a cow question

[Deleted]

If any of you currently have, or have ever had, a cow or two (like milk cows), I was wondering if you could help me.

Rich and I are going to reconfigure our pasture fencing to incorporate more acreage into the available pasture. Most of this is actually treed area. What we're wondering is, are cattle hard on trees? We notice that a lot of evergreens in people's pastures are surrounded by wood barriers (sometimes it's just pallets wired together around the trees), and we assume it's because the cattle will knock them down by rubbing on them. Now, these people all have hundreds of head of beef cattle, and we're thinking to just have one milk cow and calf, so we might not have the problem, but we do have quite a lot of trees around here of varying size and species and a lot of them will be accessible once we reposition the fencing.

Which brings up another question - are there any trees considered toxic to cattle? I know black walnut is toxic to horses, but we don't have any of those anywhere in this area. I was just wondering if there's anything I need to worry about with a cow and calf pair.

Anyway, I was just curious if anyone had any experience with cattle and trees and could give me some advice.

Thanks!

~Lannie

[Kathy]

Wild Cherry Leaves and bark are toxic too! Loco weed is also a problem for goats so I assume it would be for cattle too.

I had a herd of Jersey Dairy Cows and then Angus beef cattle in WI, so I had the tree concerns

A herd of them will compact the dirt as well as try to topple the trees due to rubbing. I know well established oaks,cottonwoods & maples don't seem to be disturbed as much by the occasional cow/calf but pines, elms and some of the more ornamental trees as well as fruit trees don't fare well. Not only do they rub but they like to munch the leaves of some tree varieties.

So my suggestion would be to put 3 or 4 steel T posts a ways out from the base-maybe 3' and then run some smooth horse wire or electric fence wire around to keep the cattle from getting right up close to the tree trunk.
The cattle want & need the shade but this simple solution will protect the tree from bovine abuse. ;D

[bergere]

Lannie,

That is a hard Question. My Dad had cattle, some would rub and chew on the trees and others would not.
Have friends with the family milking cow.

What kind of trees do you have?

If there are pine trees, you need to keep the cows out of them when they are in calf. Because if the cows eat to many needles,, and some will, there is a high chance they will abort the calf.
Oak trees are another tree you do not want them around.
Also anything with Red Fall color will be poisonous to cattle, same with horses.

Something that can help keep cattle from eating the bark off the trees,, which they mostly do in winter. Is make sure they have Free choice loose minerals, and something I stumbled into...Give them Icelandic Kelp if you can. For what ever reason I got my sheep and horses to stop eating trees with the Kelp. Never did try it on Dad's cattle.

Most plants that are Toxic to sheep, Goats, and horses are also toxic to cattle.

But even with all those worries,, there is nothing better than a super gentle cow around the place. ;D

[Deleted]

Kathy, there aren't enough t-posts in the world to go around all our trees! And even if there were, we couldn't afford them!

We have hundreds (maybe thousands, counting all the saplings) of trees. Mostly the ones I KNOW are wild plum, western red cedar, juniper, ash, and cottonwood. We have some other kinds, too, like sour cherry, chokecherry, elms, and some I don't know exactly what they are, but they're not where the animals would be.

The western red cedar turns red in the fall and winter, but the horses don't eat it. I don't know if the cow would... They're in the current pasture anyway. There is one pine just outside the corral fence, but that's the only one that's anywhere near where the horses and cattle will be.

We have a mineral lick tub that's for cattle that the feed store said would work for horses, but ours won't touch it. If it's still around when the cow gets here, maybe she'll eat it. But I also have some of the loose mineral, too. I've had it for a while, because Aiesha prefers to lick the mineral block, rather than the loose stuff, but I can keep some out anyway.

I don't know about the kelp. If it's not too expensive, and I can get it mail order without paying an arm and a leg for shipping, maybe. I've been seriously thinking about getting some diatomaceous earth to put out for all the animals. I've been researching that for some time, and it seems like it would solve a lot of problems, including parasites and flies. So as soon as we pay the car insurance next month, Rich is going to order a bag and we'll try it out.

And I suppose if they eat the bark off some of the trees, it won't be any worse than the deer damage from both chewing and rubbing. I honestly wouldn't mind if they knocked down some of these wild plum trees - those things are everywhere! The seeds drop and sprout new trees like crazy. Rich has just started mowing the saplings, hoping to keep them in check. They seem to do real well here.

So since most of the trees we do have don't hurt our horses, you think the cow and calf will be OK with them too, huh? Unless they decide to eat the cedars? Most of them are still on the smallish side, maybe 3 to 6 feet tall, but very bushy.

So many things to think about lately...

~Lannie

[nan]

Yes...I agree with everything above. The most important thing is to keep a mineral available so that they won't chew on things that aren't appropriate for them to chew on...trees/dirt/etc.... A good chelated mineral would be best and most easily assimilated for them. I never had trouble with our dairy cows eating the trees or bark because they had plenty to eat otherwise. If they have plenty of pasture and/or hay they will be fine. It might be a good idea to keep pine/evergreen(highly acidic plant matter) away from them. Also...the obvious wild cherries etc.... You will be feeding a dairy cow extra when they are in the barn too...so that they won't eat what they aren't supposed to because their tummies will be full! Oh....dairy cows drink LOTS of water...so never ever let them do without! That means in the winter you must keep the water thawed and in the summer you must make sure it isn't dry! A cow will drink around 10 gallons or more a day!

Dairy cows are a lot of work...but I sure miss mine! I sold her to a friend of ours just before we moved here and he takes wonderful care of her! She was my big ole cuddle bug! I will train another one some day....but it will have to wait till we get our house built and a place to keep her!

[Deleted]

Thanks, Nan!

We always have hay out free choice in the barn in winter, and the water trough in the barn has a de-icer in it, so it's never frozen OR empty. And I refill or clean/refill the outside trough every day, so nobody goes without water here. If I have to do it twice a day, so be it. I have to change the chickens' water twice a day now that it's hot, anyway, so what's one more chore?

We don't have any wild cherry trees here, only chokecherries and sour cherries, but neither kind are in the pasture.

Nan, when you say keep her tummy full so she won't eat what she's not supposed to eat, what do you mean? Like weeds and stuff that will make the milk taste funny? Or are you talking about the pine tree? I plan to let her graze all summer, and she'll be hayed in the winter, same as the horses. (And I do know to give her horse-quality hay - she'll be eating the same hay our horses do, so that's not a problem). I know lots of people restrict what their cows eat so as not to taint the milk, but unless it's really putrid, I'm going to let her graze what she wants and just get used to the "taste du jour." We're the only ones who will be drinking the milk (well, maybe the dogs, cats & chickens, too), so I don't have to worry about what anyone else thinks.

Anyway, what did you mean by "what she shouldn't eat?"

Thanks!

~Lannie

[nan]

You give them something to eat while you are milking them...to keep them standing still etc.....so that they get grain/silage/whatever while they are milked. That gives them food in their tummies......so that they aren't hungry or cribbing(sorry..I don't know the word for it in cows if it isn't the same as in horses). IF they are hungry they will chew on anything...same as if they are low on minerals...if they are lacking minerals they will even eat dirt to try to get minerals out of it! I never had trouble with them eating weeds and making their milk bad...but I suppose that happens .....it just never happened to me. Milk cows are pretty particular about what they eat...they aren't like goats that will eat absolutely anything!

[nan]

OH...I don't know much about pine trees because we didn't have very many in Oklahoma where we lived! We did have one stand of tall pines that were over in one of our pastures...but they didn't seem to ever bother them! They had plenty of grass though...that wasn't directly under the trees. My hubby says that they can get acidic if they eat pines/evergreens that are higher acid. That is likely why they tend to abort when they eat a lot of them??? I wouldn't want them in a pasture full of those pines....but a few shouldn't hurt??? Most of our trees were oak trees and they never bothered our cows at all. We also had maples and assorted others....like elm, sassafras, sweet gum, and dogwood. I would ask some of the ranchers around you about what is in the area and what will hurt cows. Old ranchers and farmers LOVE to tell you what they know about stuff! Go to the feed store and ask questions! The old timers get a kick out of it! It is amazing what wisdom comes out of a good chat at a feed store...also amazing how much bologny...so be careful and weed through it!

[Deleted]

Thanks, Nan. Yeah, I'll be putting some of Aiesha's senior feed (alfalfa/beet pulp pellets) in front of her when I milk. My neighbor says to feed them corn so their milk will taste better, but I'd rather not have the mycotoxins, so we won't be feeding anyone any corn!

I told Rich what was mentioned about the pine trees, and he said that back around the '20s, it was a common practice for women who wanted an abortion to drink turpentine (which is extracted from pines), so pine sap must be an abortifacient. That's weird - I didn't know that, and I should - I'm an herbalist! LOL! Well, you learn something new every day. We only have the one pine that's right on the other side of the corral fence, so maybe that won't be a problem. She'll have plenty of good grass/alfalfa hay in the winter, and after we move the fences, there will be almost 9 acres of good pasture to go around between the two horses and the cow/calf, so we should be good to go.

I really appreciate all the advice, you guys, and if you think of anything else to tell me, let me know. I haven't had cows before (I never had chickens before, but I'm doing OK with them!), so everything is new to me. But I'm learning as I go along, and finding out it's not as hard as I thought it would be. ;D

~Lannie

Oh, yeah, I forgot to say, I know about the feed store and old-timers! We just met another new one today. Everyone we meet seems to know who we are (the NEW PEOPLE), and they're so nice and helpful and have all kinds of advice about just every little thing. Next time that happens I'll ask about the cows and anything they shouldn't get into.

[nan]

Mycotoxins shouldn't be a problem if you get your corn from a mill that tests for them. My hubby used to manage a feed mill and he did a simple test on the corn to test for them before accepting a load. I would think you could ask....then again...they might tell you what you wanted to hear? Unfortunately...some folks are like that! It is odd though...one load of corn that I remember being soooo bad was from one of the Dakotas??? Is it really bad up there with corn yuckies? I know that you all have GREAT wheat up there in the far North...I get mine from Montana through a Mennonite store here......used to get the same stuff through a food co-op. Anyway.....it sounds like you will be a great cow mommy...and yep, everyone always makes it harder than it really is...all you need to do is be vigilant and have some common sense....and it all works out. If you have animals...you will lose some sometime...so that is just the way it is...and if you are like me....you will shed buckets with every single one that passes! Soft hearts and lots of animals is a tough thing!!! Trust me on that one! but blessedly....you won't lose many...and they do well with TLC that I am sure you will give them!

[bergere]

Lannie,
Also becareful with the DE. Not only can it cause lung problems in people but in animals too.

Glad I could help. It is interesting in each area of the country, there is something to watch out for with livestock. To this day I am still learning all kinds of things. ;D

[Deleted]

Yeah, Bergere, thanks, I did hear that. Although supposedly, you can put it out for the chickens to dust in and get rid of mites. I'm still researching it, to be honest, but I think I'm going to at least give it a try.

Nan, all corn has mycotoxins. They only test for one (aflatoxin) and they allow so much per FDA guidelines in it. The limit is 20 parts per billion in human, pet and horse feed, and up to 300 parts per billion in cattle and swine feed. That's too much. I choose not to consume any corn products anymore (and boy, is THAT hard to do!) because when I quit eating it, I lost my fat and my arthritis, both directly caused by the mycotoxins in corn. I almost lost my beautiful mare to that issue, but fortunately I found out what was going on and took her off corn completely. You saw the most recent picture of her. The one from last year she looked like a walking skeleton and I really didn't expect her to make it through last winter. Now I think she'll be around for some time to come. So that's why my cow won't eat corn. Neither will my chickens. There are plenty of alternatives that are non-toxic, and when I consume their milk, eggs and meat, I won't be getting a second-hand dose.

You probably didn't want to hear all that, but there it is. I can't help myself sometimes. I study too much, that's all! But I got rid of all my "incurable" diseases, so it's worth something to me. ;D

~Lannie

[nan]

Lannie...it depends on what the feed is being used for...they also test for vomitoxin(not sure how you spell it?) In dairy(or anything that goes directly into the human food chain) it has to be less than 25 ppm and for beef cows it must be less than 100 ppm...that was the federal standard when my husband managed the feel mill. BUT.....not all of it has mycotoxins....it only produces mycotoxins when it is stressed......It is prevalent...but not a given.

all of that information came from my husband that used to work in the business....I wouldn't know anything about it without him telling me about it. But...that is what he did every day.....

I think that if it helped your problems, that it is a smart thing to cut out though....if it isn't helping you...then why use it or feed it! I don't feed a lot of corn...not much protein in it...but I feed some...and I adore corn on the cob! So.....I imagine it depends on how sensitive you are to it! For others it might be wheat and wheat gluten....or for some dairy.....everyone is different and you are certainly allowed to have your own opinions! Never worry about sharing them with me! I figure....it is YOUR health and YOUR business....and it looks like you have tried to educate yourself about it! Most folks don't know an aflatoxin from a peanut!

[bergere]

Yup,, what Nan said!

My Family can't eat cow dairy and it is genetics... I blame in on Grammy. ;D
But many people can have cow dairy with no problems, just not me and my son. It is an allergy very close to those with allergy to peanuts. Though I am not as bad as my son is in reactions.

Then there is meat from the stores. I can't eat it because if there are hormones or antibiotics in the meat I get sick. But I know other folks who don't.

So everyone is different and that is a good thing. ;D

[nan]

We come from heavy duty sturdy stock around our house...I think we can eat pretty much anything....cept for my hubby.....he has to watch his cholesterol! I don't like fried foods, so it doesn't effect me......he LOVES french fries! I can't say I mind em....but I would rather have a salad followed by something in the dairy section! In fact....if I DON'T get enough milk or yogurt I can tell a difference! Folks are just all so different! What can kill one....keeps some of us going! I think you just have to be in tune with your own body and the bodies of your animals and be careful what you feed both! My friend's dog can't have beef of ANY kind! The poor thing loses its hair when it eats it! I had NEVER heard of a dog that couldn't eat beef.....but I know it is true because I have seen the poor thing when she gave him scraps of beef before she found out he was allergic! Fuzzy wuzzy was a bear...fuzzy wuzzy had no hair kinda thing!

Anyway....terrible thread drift.....but thought I would throw that in there!

[bergere]

Nan, there is nothing wrong with thread drift! ;D

My husband used to have the Constitution of an OX, but now that he is older, he finds he can't eat what he used too.
Times change too.

[nan]

Yep....that happens! I am 45 and can still pretty much eat anything...but my hubby is 46 and can't anymore! I also think it has to do with how well you have eaten throughout your life! I have always eaten primarily veggies and have eaten nearly ALL homegrown veggies for the past 22 years. My hubby on the other hand....likes junk food! He thinks nothing of eating a hostess cream pie and a diet pop! BLICK nasty!!!! I haven't ever been a pop drinker or little debbie's fan....so....anyway....I think our bodies start to rebel after a while! Least his has! You really ARE what you EAT!

[nan]

Hmmm.....just thought of something...that means I am a squash or tomato! He is a Little Debbie's swiss roll! This could be bad!

[Deleted]

Yup, I have educated myself, and it's a difficult road. I wish more people would research things, but for most it's too much work, and they don't have time, so that's why I try to share what I've learned. The problem I always encounter is that most people don't want to know. Then I have those days when I wonder why I even try... I tell myself to just leave it and keep on doing for myself and mine, who cares about the rest of the world... Then I get over it, and try again. One of these days I'll give it up for good, I guess.

In the meantime, lest anyone think I make all this stuff up, here are some links, if you're so inclined to peruse them. Oh, never mind, nobody wants to read them anyway. I'll just try to stick to homesteading topics from here on out, and keep my nutrition information to myself. Sorry to be such a downer today, but sometimes my frustration gets the better of me. I feel like the guy who kept saying the world was round, but everybody told him he was a whacko.

~Lannie

[bergere]

Ah Lannie,,, don't be so down.
I like research as you know, and I did read your site.
Some things would work for me but not others.
That is what is so hard with food items, well ....even man made drugs.
If everyone would find out the root causes of their problems they would be much better off.
For me and my family I have researched and know family history to some of it. I know what works for me, might not work the same way on another,, that is all I was saying.
My body can do some really strange reactions to some things both food and man made drugs, so I am always careful.